tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post538612888962070921..comments2023-11-24T00:17:35.459-08:00Comments on Random blatherings by Jeff: On stolen coins and transaction blacklistsJeff Garzikhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11664909333009539129noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-26839661435915838772013-11-23T13:17:50.455-08:002013-11-23T13:17:50.455-08:00With CoinJoin and other mixing, eventually, like t...With CoinJoin and other mixing, eventually, like the US$100 bill, the majority of Bitcoin would be tainted, like the Benjamin is with cocaine. http://www.snopes.com/business/money/cocaine.asp<br /><br />All bitcoin would once again be fungible as they would all be equally "redlisted."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-52587376804601789752013-09-02T02:28:14.227-07:002013-09-02T02:28:14.227-07:00"Theft of private property, and money in part..."Theft of private property, and money in particular, is of course wrong and illegal in most jurisdictions."<br /><br />Except of course, by government. Not just in the form of taxation, but also asset forfeiture and eminent domain.npcompletehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09180638009713314654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-22829827453158162732013-08-30T21:23:20.336-07:002013-08-30T21:23:20.336-07:00But imagine the coins were stained with ink from a...But imagine the coins were stained with ink from an exploding ink pack, suggesting they'd been stolen from a bank. In that case presumably a court would say the retailer should have known that they were stolen, so they were somehow complicit in the theft.<br /><br />Now instead of "stained with ink from an exploding ink pack", substitute "listed on a real-time police blacklisted transaction database". You could make the case that the retailer could reasonably be expected to know that those coins were stolen.<br /><br />I really hope nobody tries to mess with fungibility like this, and it's certainly in the interests of Bitcoin users that they don't, but it looks to me like financial censorship via a transaction blacklist could be:<br />1) Technically possible.<br />2) Sometimes helpful to law enforcement.<br />3) (Possibly) something that could be forced on vendors using existing laws about receiving stolen property and money-laundering.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-48866584791121531932013-08-30T19:07:34.480-07:002013-08-30T19:07:34.480-07:00Interesting, I wasn't familiar with CoinJoin, ...Interesting, I wasn't familiar with CoinJoin, but it makes sense. <br /><br />I would still say from a simple technical standpoint, all the outputs from a CoinJoin transaction contain an equal portion of each of the inputs. So if you were tracking stolen coins that were spent CoinJoin style, all of the outputs would contain a diluted portion of stolen coins.<br /><br />NOTALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18023642993271445419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-73311870717709170482013-08-30T16:05:40.267-07:002013-08-30T16:05:40.267-07:00Don't be so sure about the technical ability t...Don't be so sure about the technical ability to track stolen coins being a given.<br /><br />Where software can be used to identify patterns, other software can be used to obscure them.<br /><br />See CoinJoin.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17643273880733792480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-53699329091086529002013-08-30T09:49:01.847-07:002013-08-30T09:49:01.847-07:00The technical issue of tracking stolen coins is ve...The technical issue of tracking stolen coins is very easy, so I think that it is inevitable that it will be done. Like you said, some bushiness already have their own private blacklist.<br /><br />A blacklist may catch relatively innocent people who only "received stolen property". However legally speaking, possession of stolen goods can be a crime, and is almost always subject to forfeiture. <br /><br />While building a blacklist into the bitocoin protocol would indeed be antithetical to the basis of bitcoin, having a public or commercial blacklist that vendors or users can voluntarily opt to use as they see fit is not antithetical, and should be freely available to those who wish.<br /><br />While "freezing" the account of stolen bitcoins is not possible, it is potentially possible to use blacklisted coins as a means to find or deter a thief. In your scenario, if Bob's coins come up as blacklisted when he is giving them to Charlie, Bob may wish to notify the victim of Alice's identity as the source of his coins, and the thief. Depending on how the community chooses to handle situations like this, the victim could incentivize Bob to do this by removing the blacklist once the thief has been identified or apprehended.NOTALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18023642993271445419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-50058694295644666482013-08-30T09:26:37.659-07:002013-08-30T09:26:37.659-07:00Jeff, i'm really glad to see you've arrive...Jeff, i'm really glad to see you've arrived at this conclusion.joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01487691912547119987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-23663173501292792992013-08-30T09:20:23.769-07:002013-08-30T09:20:23.769-07:00I don't know why this is a surprise to anyone....I don't know why this is a surprise to anyone. If a thief steals $500 in cash and uses it to purchase goods from various retailers, are those retailers complicit in the theft? Should they be punished for the theft? Bitcoin is analogous to digital cash; you can build eversible payment systems *on top* of Bitcoin, but by its very definition it should not allow for transactions to be reversed.Riccardohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05555720096276121317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-32295248088377193052013-08-30T08:35:02.987-07:002013-08-30T08:35:02.987-07:00It is quite consistent with paper dollars (cash).
...It is quite consistent with paper dollars (cash).<br /><br />Police may catch and convict the thief, but there is no guarantee your dollars will be returned to you.<br />Jeff Garzikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11664909333009539129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-60590436235462098602013-08-30T08:34:14.442-07:002013-08-30T08:34:14.442-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jeff Garzikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11664909333009539129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4084045954004917632.post-87787077762428061442013-08-30T06:35:11.481-07:002013-08-30T06:35:11.481-07:00Basically, Bitcoin will force it's users to re...Basically, Bitcoin will force it's users to resort back to: "if you're strong enough you can force people to give back your money"<br /><br />If you have the power to track where the coins went, you (as an individual, a company or through an organised network like government) can force people to return the money.<br /><br />Bitcoin 'theft' becomes a very subjective term, based on the who gets to keep it, instead of a single consistent law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com